So aparantly the debate of the month is "Welfare Epics". Its all over the forums, and you see it in trade channel all day. It is now popping across the blog community.
Meg is talking about it
So is BOK
It seems that the debate is really getting everyone up in arms. Expecialy raiders. The big debate seems to be over a lack of progression in arena/pvp and an ease of getting something purple to wear. Several people are complaining that under the old rank system pvp was better and gear was more representative of skill. Now former HWL's and GM's don't get me wrong but...
HELL NO!
All level 60 HWL meant was that you either spent 16 hours a day for weeks at a time in front of your computer in AV or AFK botting your way through AV. This wasn't any skill. Was it progression? Sure the more time you spent the more gear you got but to be honest that is the worst gear progression ever. You're rewarded for nothing more than time spent. This is tantimount to recieving a huge pay increase at work just for showing up and staying late, it doesnt matter if hey you get anything done!
The advent of arena allowed PvP players with better skill to get better gear than someone who AFK'd in AV all day and got their pvp blue set. Granted one can still bank 200 points a week from a bottomed out team but lets look realisticaly:
2v2 1300's rating gets you 250 points a week I believe. Gloves wousld take you 5 weeks to get. Weapons would take nearly 3 and a half months for a 2hander. Does this really seem like a welfare arena farmer gets to stack on a ton of s3 gear? Nope he gets one shiney purple for his hours of time. He could have also farmed for crafted epics or gold and purchased crafted epics from a T5/T6 guild (I've seen non raider LW's with the BT crafted shoulders).
Meanwhile if a person is on a successful team those gloves take one or two weeks to get. They do well and are rewarded for being GOOD not for spending TIME.
Now raiders seem to criticise that a good player can gear up very quickly via arena. I fail to see the problem. As a hunter, I could literaly sit in a raid and auto+steadyshot spam and over months learn to avoid xxx aoe or stop dpsing when xxx comes and eventualy get a good deal of purple loot.
Now lets be honest. For a hunter is downing Leotheras excessivly chalenging except if you do not have the gear to DPS hard enough?
Nope pew pew pew stop pew pew pew. Pull pet back pew pew pew.
Should this hunter rewarded as quickly as a hunter who is exceptional and is able to win consistantly in PvP against opponents who can react on the fly?
I think not, I think faster rewards for more challenging play is a good thing. I think that the progression method works only for the old pvp system where time was rewarded as well as raiding and honor farming where primarily time is rewarded.
Now granted I have the utmost respect for the dedication and time raiders put in, heck I did it for the first 4 months of being 70! Organizing 25 people is a challenge in its own. But I think due to the different nature, the pvp reward system is good.
What does everyone else think? Time is the most important thing to be rewarded or should ability be also?
Thats right peep my spirit bitches
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6 comments:
The problem is my argument is kind of complicated.
What the old system rewarded was wrong. As you say, it measured time instead of skill, which is stupid. However, how it handed out rewards, with the ranks and the different gear at different ranks, that was a good system.
If the old system had measured your win percentage in BGs, for example, that would have been a pretty good overall system.
Right now, I like that the Arena system measures skill. I just don't like how it hands out rewards.
The thing with "welfare epics" is that they are helping out the more casual player. The one that isn't always able to spend a lot of time raiding but are able to put in a few hours to get honor/arena points to get some decent gear.
As it is anyways, people almost need a PvE set and a PvP set whether it comes from Arena or BGs honor rewards because they have more of a combination of resilience and stam then you'll find from PvE equipment. So this also helps out the hardcore raider who likes to do some PvP.
So that they can cater to multiple types of players they setup this system. Is it perfect no but I think its the best that can be done at the moment without them losing player base.
The way i see to fix this whole thing is this. The problem is progression. In arena and pvp in general there is none, but there could be gear wise. The accumulation of points is the problem. With enough time invested a fresh 70 can get on an arena team and get a piece of s3 arena gear. Not that i have a problem with this personally, but it raises questions with a few. The pvp gear should be tiered and require the previous season plus some points to get it. Want the s2 chest, gotta get the s1 + some points to upgrade to it. Want the s3 head, gotta get the 1st two tiers 1st. For one, you would see a bigger range of gear, and wouldnt render previous seasons obsolete. Drop the point requirement 1/3 for each tier and i think we might be on to something... just my 2 cents.
I'd have to agree the old system had to go; the new system is much better and fits pvp way of getting gear very well.
As a 100% PvE hunter on a PvP server .... i see your point and agree with parts of it ....BUT
The pve hunter your using as a comparison, is the same guy who used to leech AV. There is no way you can carry dead weight in a 25 man unless your already in T6 and you know it, and most guilds that are just learning it aren't.
I totally resent the fact that some of the pvp gear is better than the pve gear available. We are organizing 25 folks and spending hour upon hours fig out the strat that works for us and some clothie goes in BG and LOS's everything while doting and gets awesome gear???? Please ..... i agree the PvP system needed vamping but many lazy folks stopped doing PvE cause the PvP gear was so much easier to get.
There's two sides to every story.
jmho
"Want the s2 chest, gotta get the s1 + some points to upgrade to it. Want the s3 head, gotta get the 1st two tiers 1st. "
I would have no issue with this, most serious PVPers will have enough honor/points to do this, I literaly need 133 more points to have every piece of season 3 aside from ranged weapon. I'm pretty sure I'd be able to go season by season.
"We are organizing 25 folks and spending hour upon hours fig out the strat that works for us and some clothie goes in BG and LOS's everything while doting and gets awesome gear???? Please ..... "
See this is where my disagreement comes in. Now sure a raid group needs to organize 25 people, and sure you need to learn to avoid X aoe, or pick up X add but overall PVE raid strats are not very difficult. Due to the ammount of dmg they're less forgiving to mistakes but they're not difficult. A real player while able to make mistakes playing you is a hell of alot harder to deal with, theres far more abilities to contend with than a raid boss with 3 or 4.
Meanwhile being the druid who a warrior cant touch takes a ton more work and skill if you ask me. You act as though lossing is silly however avoiding other players in arena takes work alot more work than it takes me to dps on hydross.
"There is no way you can carry dead weight in a 25 man unless your already in T6 and you know it"
Absolutely untrue, how many raids are run with 4-5 dpsers putting out 1000dps and 4-5 putting out 500? I'd say about 90% of raids the exception being the people who killed BT in a week or two. Do you really think that a raid with 10 dpsers doing 800 dps each couldnt all pop up to 1000dps each, drop 1 dpser and cary someone basicaly afk? I'd bet money they can, thats how guilds sell nether vortexes or spyglasses as well as voidstar tailismans to arena locks.
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